Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Their village church, Vicki basing are here. And I am sitting with pastor Michael fueling. We're talking through sermon Q and a from June 13th, 2021, where he talked about practical evangelism for a lonely world. And today we have a question and it is how has pastoral counseling changed during COVID?
Speaker 2 00:00:27 Well, uh, am I sermon? There are a handful of statistics that I shared. I want to revisit those. Um, the first group of stats is from what's called the loneliness experiment in 2018, the unit, the UK launched it's really the biggest experiment of its time. 55,000 participants from all over the world. Demographics ranging from 16 years old to 99 and this and their results were pre COVID. And so the big takeaways are that if you are between the ages of 16 and 24, statistically, you are about twice as likely to experience, to experience severe loneliness or depressive symptoms creating the result of loneliness. Um, very interesting because post COVID, um, this demographic particularly, um, got much worse up to about 80% identified, uh, feeling very lonely or significant lonely with depressive symptoms in this, in this time. And so, uh, this whole last 16 months at the time of this recording was pretty devastating for people's spiritual health, their mental health, emotional health, relational health, social life.
Speaker 2 00:01:31 Um, in fact, one of the outcomes of the studies, which I found striking was that one of the most significant social factors to suffer was people's ability to have normal everyday smalltalk conversation. And so, um, what, what the loneliness experience experiment is describing is that what would happen is, is, uh, you would have a conversation with me. It might be your first conversation kinda outside of COVID. It might be on zoom. It might be on the phone and, and they identified a few factors that might actually have made it initially difficult. For example, we're not doing anything, there's nothing to talk about. You might have strong political or social views, and you might not be confident of the views of the person you're talking to. So you can't talk about that. And so like, you know, when you talk to like an eight year old boy, you're like, Hey man, how's it going? And
Speaker 1 00:02:16 They're like, pin nothing good,
Speaker 2 00:02:19 Fine, fine. Y you know, like, and it's interesting because their observations is that so much of, of the west has gone back to, um, really like immature communication styles where they're even forgetting to respond with a question. So how this plays out is you and I, maybe we have a zoom meeting and we're like, Hey, what's up. And it's weird. And I leave that feeling weird. Now my social anxiety is higher. So the next conversation I have, I'm bringing more anxiety. And as we know, anxiety does not make conversations, especially in social circumstances
Speaker 3 00:02:54 Better. It makes things more awkward. And most people
Speaker 2 00:02:57 Think they hide it and they don't. And that, and real. So it, it became this cycle. So actually the art of talking, um, was one of the things that has fallen away. And I have personally very much noticed this, um, when we are having conversations with people after church, the amount of awkward conversations I have where people just stare at me is two times higher. Yeah. Very strange. And it wasn't until I was preparing for the sermon that I, I began to like, make sense of this. I said that actually does make a lot of sense. They have not been calling people. They've been zooming. Um, they have not had these social interactions. So anyway, so the stats are out. Um, and so let me just tell you from my end, what, what I have seen personally, not going to speak for professional counselors. Um, although we have tried to refer to them as much as possible.
Speaker 2 00:03:45 Um, so I made a short list here. Um, addictions absolutely have gotten worse. Never have we seen people drink more, never. I mean, people who would drink normally have like quadrupled their normal drinking Christians. Now it doesn't mean almost everybody I've talked to will say I gained a lot of weight because I drank a lot of wine. Like that is, that is a very, very common, um, issue. I think we are on the verge of seeing levels of alcoholism higher than we've ever had before. So had to intervene in a couple of those circumstances that have gotten exponentially worse in, in COVID. And that's been a very real thing. Um, loneliness is so much deeper than ever before. Uh, and I think there are some interesting reasons for this, of course, some are we're isolated socially. Um, some are yes, but as I have talked to most Christians, you would think if you were to say that I'm going to give you a year of isolation, I'm going to give you a year of working at home. You would think they would work out more, spend more time in God's word. Um, they would have a deeper relationship with the Lord than ever before they learned to pray. And maybe they'd pick up a new hobby. Well, the vast majority of people that we talked to,
Speaker 1 00:04:54 Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say, I did none of those. And I worked for a year or two.
Speaker 2 00:04:59 It is, it is incredibly con my pastor friends, um, have never struggled spiritually more, not because they don't love the Lord. Um, what this season did is it just sort of flipped people on their heads and we didn't quite know which way was up and how to land and people ate more. We got fatter, we drank more,
Speaker 1 00:05:16 Took a lot more shortcuts and think, oh my goodness, with the kids, with their school, I mean, we were balancing more, right. It was never,
Speaker 2 00:05:24 Never have people watch more TV and Netflix and Hulu had a
Speaker 3 00:05:28 Disney plus launched goodness. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Disney planned
Speaker 1 00:05:33 Almost. It's like a giant, oh, wait, we won't go down that road. But
Speaker 2 00:05:37 These, all of these, um, behavioral things have a net result in some sort of depression and loneliness. And so, yes, they're lonely because they're not with their friends, their normality, whatever, but you, you, you put on that, all of these really, really bad habits that seem to be the, I'm not going to put a percentage, I'm just saying most. So we'll say 51 to 99%
Speaker 3 00:05:57 Majority accurate. Um,
Speaker 2 00:06:00 And so that, that is really clear, loneliness, depression, et cetera. Um, habits of getting really terrible people's spiritual lives have kind of just stalled. Um, it's been interesting to watch people, particularly in the past couple of weeks, as we preach on evangelism, reflect on their lack of heart, or even thinking about their neighbors who are shut in their homes, wasn't even like in their brains. And they're like, I've been, I've been defending myself in my territory for so long. I've been so, and that's probably anxiety to a degree. Like I've been so concerned about my body and my home and, and the cleanliness of the things that come in here that, um, I have not really thought about people I've been pretty self-consumed uh, we see that in, in our inability to get basic ministries funded with people. Yeah. Um, the idea, I mean, this is not so like the idea of going to church now for so many committed evangelical Christians, they will give faithfully.
Speaker 2 00:06:53 And we're finding this in church after church, after church, particularly in churches, where there are a lot of young families like that is, that is an interesting denominator. Uh, there have a hard time getting back to church. They're having a hard time even processing what it means to attend church weekly. Let us let alone serve two to three times a month. Like, like to make the whole thing function. But I will say like, um, as I talked to pastors, most of them will say like, the people who have stayed, even though they're doing less, are giving a lot more. So that's been a, it's almost like a, I wonder if it's guilty of guilty, you know what I mean? I've, I've, I've tried to process that one. Um, so I think there's another issue here, which we've seen, which is common issues that people wrestled with were amplified to three or four times. Um, again, I don't know how to quantify that. That's more of like, I'm watching, oh, you had a porn addiction, you really have a porn addiction. You drank how you're really doing your, your husband and your wife. You guys are bickering quite a bit. You're at each other's throats. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:07:48 Or even mental health one. So like, wow, you are a little anxious. You're really, she's depressed while you're really struggling with depression. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:07:55 Let me, let me tell you what has been most challenging about that? So we, we have referred so many people to, we have a network of really godly, awesome Christian counselors. Um, I can not get most people in anywhere. They are overwhelmed to the point where many of them, they don't even return your phone call. Yeah. And so that, that is actually been an incredibly challenging thing because I don't have the time. Some, like there are some issues that are so deep and complex, right? I'm not, I'm not really equipped to deal with them in a way that is healthy. Um, and I don't know where to where to send them. Right. Cause I typically had the safety net where we would have a collaborative approach, pastorally, psychologically theologically, relationally, socially communally. We'd bring all these together and seek the health of the whole person.
Speaker 2 00:08:45 Um, but there are really significant potents that are now missing from this. And so it seems that like issues have gotten two to three to four times worse and we don't have as much support address them. That's been, um, a challenging one. And so, uh, here's another one, uh, a division. And, uh, I want to clarify this village. We've had very little division. In fact, I've shared multiple times. I don't think I've had one person like sin against me, or they've asked hard questions. They've wrestled the really difficult things politically, socially, how do we deal with Pritzker and his rules and Trump and all this stuff. And yeah, those are all fair questions. Yeah. You can ask those, but I've never had anybody call me names. Um, uh, I was gone
Speaker 3 00:09:28 The summer though. Let's be honest. I was on sabbatical for two months. So you and Matt and Mike Boyle, you guys, you guys took that.
Speaker 1 00:09:39 I will say that. I agree with you and having been here over the summer, which was, you know, more in the heightened side of COVID, right. The spring was nuts. Everybody, you know, just was kinda trying to flex and like we close, we got online, we, you know, all of that was going on. And then in the summertime we had a lot of tough conversations, but I would say that by and large, the people at village church were a gracious. Um, they voiced their opinions and wanted to process things. Um, but you know, pastor Matt and pastor Mike Boyle, who came on, um, over that period of time were wonderful at working through with that one-on-one yeah. Yep. Yeah. And that'd
Speaker 2 00:10:14 Be my perpetual dream for our church. If you have, if you're watching something or you're frustrated or concerned, we want to hear just don't sin. And I think village has just not mastered it, but better than any place I've ever heard of his handled, the disagreed, the art of disagreeing in a way that brings God glory with leadership or decisions that you might not understand. And I can't think of too many circumstances where we were not unified in Christ at the end of the conference, which
Speaker 1 00:10:36 Was nuts because like, let's, let's think about how, like, this was probably the most emotionally driven, like in the same amount of like politics, the election wasn't enough. There was the election, there was, you know, the social justice movement that swept through. And we had COVID 19. There were, I mean,
Speaker 3 00:10:54 Officers were amazing. And then they were the devil.
Speaker 1 00:10:56 I mean, it was just this huge, the spectrum of insanity over 2020. Yeah. And, um, you know, the people of the church were wonderful. And I think a lot of that was knowing that, you know, we are submitting to the Lord first. Um, we were under his authority first. He appointed the government to be, you know, around us. But we also came out at the beginning with our elders and said, Hey, we're going to, you know, follow guidelines until they cause us to sin. And, you know, just kind of having that clarity, but, you know, we've had a lot of change over COVID and pastoral counseling being just one of those. Yeah. Um, so what would you say to somebody who can't get in to see that counselor can't, you know, is having all of these, you know, kind of hit after hit, after hit, after hit? Yeah. Yeah. Without what I would say is, um,
Speaker 2 00:11:40 We want to help you as much as we humanly possibly can. Um, there are, there are just, there are subjects that our pastors are not going to deal with. Well, because we're not equipped to deal with it. Um, but we do have a lot of equipment and we also have a network here internally that we can tap into that. The challenge challenges that that network is also tapped out because there are so many needs. The problem I'm even hesitant to say it because what I don't want somebody to feel like is I'm an inconvenience and my fear of even airing this part of it, which we will cause it's real, I think truth and reality is always the best, you know, thing. So, um, is, is that they're going to feel like they're inconvenienced it's it has nothing to do with inconvenience in any way, shape or form it has simply to do with capacity.
Speaker 2 00:12:25 Yeah. And so I would say, um, be very, very patient, um, know the limitations of the people that you're working with. Um, and go before the Lord on a regular, regular basis. Like I cannot stress enough. Um, your relationship with the Lord is paramount period. And in every counseling situation, I want to make sure that you and the Lord are solid. I'm not going to ignore all these other things. Right. But foundationally, I want to know that your relationship with Christ is strong. And here's what I know if we're in post COVID. I know that for most everyone I'm talking to, not everybody, most everybody, particularly if you have children, particularly if you had a job, um, you have neglected that. And I want to help rebuild, rebuild that as a foundation and deal with the rest. But that, yeah, so I would just say don't, uh, don't, don't play, don't let the devil and getting your brain or lies that I'm, I'm not wanted or they don't care about,
Speaker 3 00:13:18 They can't help me. I'm fast help
Speaker 2 00:13:20 Convenience. Like none of that is on our brain. We want to support every person who needs help, whatever it is. And, um, and, um, there are a lot of limits right now. So we're trying to figure out how to work through all that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:13:34 So if you are watching this and you do need help, you do need to reach out for some pastoral counseling, you attend village church, or otherwise you can always go to our website and follow the form there, that vcu.org. Yeah. And
Speaker 2 00:13:44 Then, right. I want to invite you back. We got more on sermon Q and a thank you for joining
Speaker 4 00:13:47 Us. And again, if there's anything we can do to help you do not hesitate, we love you. It is our joy to lead and shepherd you under the authority of Jesus and his word. And so we got you. Um, please come talk to us.
