Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Hey there. Welcome to village church, sermon Q and a I'm pastor Alex. And I'm here with pastor Craig and pastor Michael. And today we are answering questions from a sermon that we've preached on August 29th, 2021 about the tabernacle. And
Speaker 1 00:00:21 Today's question actually, isn't at all about the tabernacle,
Speaker 0 00:00:24 But pastor Michael in your sermon, uh, you used an illustration about Harry Potter and I'm really interested. If you could answer a question for
Speaker 1 00:00:32 Me, I have no recollection by the way. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:00:35 Fair enough. Should Christians
Speaker 2 00:00:37 Read Harry Potter?
Speaker 3 00:00:40 I think the, I think the answer is completely depends on three things. Number one, you are conscience. Number two, your convictions and number three, your context. So I would not actually be, uh, willing or interested in giving somebody an absolute yes, you or your children should read Harry Potter, but I would like to start off and make a pretty big statement. You ready for this? And we're sitting down. Oh, that's so funny. Okay. So if you let's talk about your children, if you forbid your children from reading or watching Harry Potter on the basis of magic, um, or some kind of sorcery stuff, right. Then I think in order for you to be consistent with your principles, the following movies need to be eradicated from your collection.
Speaker 1 00:01:25 Are you guys ready? You're going to go for it. Hold on. Enemy's right here.
Speaker 3 00:01:27 Ready? Mary Poppins. What proved to me? She's not a witch
Speaker 1 00:01:32 Prove. Okay. She's literally got an umbrella and starts
Speaker 3 00:01:34 Floating in the air. I just, whatever. Fair enough. Okay, so now we're going to, I mean, okay. Frozen.
Speaker 1 00:01:42 You just ruined my household. Just shut you. I'm just saying it is witchcraft.
Speaker 3 00:01:48 It is all that stuff.
Speaker 1 00:01:50 That's right. So ice in her veins. Now this is where we get a little personal though,
Speaker 3 00:01:53 Because the two movie franchises that I do not believe can exist in your house, if you are against Harry Potter. And the basis of magic is going to be the Lord of the rings trilogy and the Chronicles of Narnia, because in both of those, you have a whole magical world with spells and different things. And so if you are fundamentally opposed to magic in any way, being, um, glorified, then automatically there is a whole bunch of things that we need to begin to eradicate. So I've listened to multiple, multiple pastors, um, all on YouTube, by the way, a couple in person, but all on YouTube, uh, try to justify that Harry Potter should not be engaged by anybody, but Lord of the rings and not Narnia are totally okay. And honestly, you know, when sometimes people make arguments and you're just like, you're stretching, right? Like sometimes you feel with me and I feel with you
Speaker 1 00:02:44 And I'm kinda heard that. Yeah, no, but that's like sometimes,
Speaker 3 00:02:48 You know, you dig in a little bit and, and, and you don't want to be the one to say, Lord of the rings and CS Lewis and Jared talking like are bad. And so I think sometimes people overplay their cards. And I just want to say, uh, if you're going to throw this one out, let's be really consistent and throw them all out. Right. Um, so I would welcome actually disagreement, but, um, I, here's how I think we can process this. Number one, let's start identify what we know about the Bible and what we know about Harry Potter. So I'll start with the Bible. So can I get an amen that the Bible condemns all uses of magic sorcery, divination, necromancy, absolutely. Any, anything where a person is dabbling into the spiritual realm, not according to the laws of God, right? We can also affirm that we are encouraged to dabble into the spiritual realm, uh, particularly in the parameters, by which God permits and allows.
Speaker 3 00:03:42 For example, prayer. When we pray, we are making a request into the spiritual realm, if you will expect, and God's going to hear us. And another one would be spiritual warfare. Let's say you are very present aware that there's a demon present in one way or another. We are encouraged to invoke the spiritual realm to do different things. And those are affirmed practices by God. And so the disciples done by the disciples, for sure. And so, um, accessing the spiritual realm is not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. It is good or bad depending on whether or not you're a bank God's word or not. Right. And so if we just kind of lay that as a foundation and anything we say here on out, if there's even an ounce of us that is advocating divination, necromancy, sorcery, et cetera, then we're probably not doing something. Right. So let's now identify a few things that I think we know about the world of Harry Potter. And I think this could help us frame the discussion. So number one, um, the magic used in Harry Potter has zero real world equivalency. Yeah, I'll go along with that. Okay. So there's nothing that you're ever going to see in Harry Potter that anybody is going to try or do in the real world,
Speaker 2 00:04:50 Unless you go to Harry Potter world where you can wave your magic
Speaker 1 00:04:52 Wand in certain ways, have doors open fantastical workers, which is a magical industry, right? So I think that's really important
Speaker 3 00:05:02 To identify that what is happening in Harry Potter is not real. And there is no counterpart in the real world by which we access dark magic. So even though they might call it sorcery, right, it's actually not sorcery in any way, shape or form. Yes, it is a fantastical world. The second part I want to draw here is that in the world of Harry Potter, it is built on this, could blow people's minds. The traditions laid out in, in, in, uh, Lord of the rings and Narnia. So it's interesting as so many like centers, right. And, and all of these things were taken by Tolkien and by CS Lewis and they had a tradition before then they built on
Speaker 1 00:05:41 Built on that about how to build a fantasy world. Right. Right. But this entire fantastical
Speaker 3 00:05:46 World of Harry Potter, um, really finds its roots and talking and Louis, and then, then beforehand. And so it's interesting to me
Speaker 2 00:05:55 That this Greek guy looked like seminars or something like that. Yes. So it goes back forever. Absolutely.
Speaker 3 00:06:00 And there was a no hesitation in the Christian authors to kind of tabel into Greek mythology and create this fantastical world because they knew it kind of just didn't exist. In fact, even by doing it, um, what they did is they showed almost the impossibility and foolishness of those past religions, um, by doing it so that I think that's another world, which is number one, what they do in Harry Potter has no real world connections. Uh, number two, this tradition of fantasy worlds is built on the backs of Christian authors. And then, um, I, I I've wanted to say to a lot of people, listen, if you're gonna, if you're gonna pick a bone with Harry Potter, then I want to see you pick the equal bone with, with Nardia and Lord of the rings. And nobody will do it because intuitively we were just not ready to go there because we love them. We love what they stand for. So we'll put up with wizardry and witchcraft in that fantastical world, but no, not the world of Harry Potter, even though none of them have any real world point of origin where these patterns just as we're taking,
Speaker 2 00:06:57 They might say like a Narnia or token, both have redeeming value in, in their revelation of their mythology. You know what I mean? They might, for sure. They might say, and that's the redeeming value in that versus Harry Potter. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:07:11 I, I think that's good. And so, um, I wrote down some notes here that I think I wanna, I want to dabble into that because I think there's some really helpful insights into Harry Potter again. So let's talk about good reasons not to read it. So if you're listening, here's, here's a couple of number one would be your conscience. Doesn't permit it. Yeah. Easy enough. Like if you are uncomfortable, you should not
Speaker 0 00:07:32 Read it, but they're uncomfortable with your kids reading it like a hundred percent
Speaker 2 00:07:36 Biblical. If you can do something in faith, you shouldn't
Speaker 3 00:07:39 Right. Should not do it. Another level of this is his convictions. Like you are convinced that this, you don't want to have any connection to this whatsoever because it uses words like magic sorcery, et cetera. Um, and that would be a good reason not to do it. I would like to challenge you and to say, therefore, will you now throw out all literary dabble into the fantastical world of magic? Whether or not they have redeeming metaphors or not. Right. Because if the issue is magic, then the issue is magic. Okay. So if your convictions don't permit it totally respect that. I don't want to change your mind. Uh, I'm not interested in trying to convince someone to read Harry Potter. I have no identity in Harry Potter whatsoever in any way. So, um, here's another one. If you're a kid, if your parents don't permit it right, then you don't do it.
Speaker 3 00:08:23 It's that simple. You live under their authority. And then here's another one you might even find that Harry Potter is fine for kids to read, but you, your kids aren't ready for it. Or maybe your kids are like uniquely susceptible to dark things and you just are not confident what's going to happen if they engage that. So, um, I've got one daughter that, um, she's super sensitive to violence in every way, even suspense. And so we just don't, she doesn't watch it and we protect her from it. And when she's exposed to it, she kind of freezes and it affects the way she just, even her dream. So we try to protect her. And so I think those are really good reasons not to read it or to watch it. And if either of you said it's against my convictions or my conscience, I would say, cool, I totally support you. And don't read it. That there's that. So let's have a good reasons to ready. I would love
Speaker 1 00:09:12 That. All right. I know. So you probably have more inclination
Speaker 3 00:09:17 To say, we think it's actually good. Good,
Speaker 1 00:09:18 Good. Is
Speaker 0 00:09:21 A redeeming value. Not telling like a, like a gospel story, like Lord of the rings or Nadia does, but there, there is actually redeeming value to it.
Speaker 3 00:09:28 You might be like, like, I dunno,
Speaker 2 00:09:30 I haven't read the books, but I did try and do the movie.
Speaker 3 00:09:34 Yeah. And so far the movies seemed to be pretty. I mean, there's some differences, but pretty much it's basically the Bookspan movie for him. So here's, here's a good one. Your conscience allows it. I mean, I think your conscience is a really important factor in this. I would never, ever want to look at you and say, violate your conscience. That's number one, number two, it is a cultural phenomenon that has transformed and informed our pop culture moment. Yes. So I was, uh, I realized I was with Matt, who's behind the camera here. And we were at his house with a couple of missionaries. And, uh, the amount of Harry Potter references that came up were striking. And it was just very interesting because there was one couple who had not read the books or watched the movie and they were lost. We were talking about dementors and different things like that. And he who should not be named what's going
Speaker 1 00:10:17 On. And we won't even talk about Harry Potter. It was just this,
Speaker 3 00:10:19 This vocabulary had made its way into the conversation. And so what we are learning is that with an entire generation of people under 35, largely even very young at this point, that to even understand some of their pop culture references is to understand the narrative and the flow of Harry Potter. And so your kids are probably picking this up, whether or not they are reading it, they may even start using some of the language. So that would be one, it's very helpful to understand the cultural moment. And you're gonna, you're gonna miss a ton of stuff and the normal conversation, if you are not kind of privy to like what's happening in the Harry Potter world, um, here's the third one. It has become for so many young people, their primary cultural formation of good and evil. So here's like a redeeming, I think really cool part of Harry Potter. Um, you have this kid who represents two worlds, the Wizarding world and the, and the, and the human world and the Wizarding world. What happens in that world affects what happens in the actual real world. And all the people in the real world are not actually aware of what's happening in the wizard Wizarding world, which kind of represents the spiritual world. And so what he does is he represents both of them and then kills the prince of darkness, um, so that he can bring peace to the whole world. Right. Ruin the
Speaker 1 00:11:32 Story for everybody. Everybody knows it and that's easy enough. I haven't read them well, that's what happens. So he wins, but I've often wondered, like
Speaker 3 00:11:40 Is JK Rowling somehow informed by the Christian narrative story, because it's written all throughout our book, you have these dementors, which are functionally like, like demons. And you have a place that is functional, like Hal and Voldemort. Like this person is functioning like Satan, and you have Harry Potter who represents both worlds is like a Jesus. You have sacrifice, you have blood. It's very interesting. Some of these dynamics that converged together, the reason I say that is not because I'm going to justify the wizardry or the sorcery before an entire generation. They have no other literary framework or piece of information that is forming their moral good or their moral bad. And it, and it teaches kids. There is a spiritual, evil, and there's a spiritual good choose, good evil, only kills and destroys. That's what it does. So, um, we were working with somebody, um, and they, they said that when they came to Christ, Harry Potter prepared them for Christ because it built out their entire cultural theology of good evil representation and a savior and evil that when they heard the gospel with Harry Potter datas, it prepared them for, for that world. And that was connections. Yeah. Now my saying, read Harry Potter, because you're going to give God tons of glory in the process. I don't know. That's not mine to decide. Yeah. I am saying though, it's forming an entire generation's framework of,
Speaker 0 00:12:57 Well, think of missionaries too. Like when missionaries go to a place that has no context for the gospel and increasingly the place where we are is getting less and less context for the gospel, what those missionaries do is they try to connect with the cultural narratives that create the most openness for the gospel. And I think that they're true or not.
Speaker 3 00:13:17 Yep. Yep. Yep. One of the things you shared with me, and I would love for you to talk about it is you had talked about it is the, I actually have a quote from me it's the last remaining, um, narrative of cultural hope, um, explain to me, okay.
Speaker 0 00:13:31 So, uh, Harry Potter, I'm like the generation that grew up reading Harry Potter. I was learning to read us, Harry Potter was coming out and, uh, it tells this story of, uh, you know, this Victor rising up over evil and conquering evil, right? Defeating evil, and then every other major young adult, uh, or even written for younger kids narrative that was built from there, uh, told a hopeless story, a story of a dystopian
Speaker 1 00:14:01 Maze runner, Hungary, <inaudible> empires, all of those things. These are the, those
Speaker 0 00:14:06 Became the culturally forming narratives. And, you know, lo and behold, you get gen Z. Now one of the more depressed generations that is looking for some form of hope, but the only messages that they get told is that the world gets darker and dark.
Speaker 3 00:14:20 The walking dead is the primary narrative for right. You right. And that's the formational
Speaker 0 00:14:25 Narrative for what the world is. And so Harry Potter, there's, it's still has this really strong cultural power. And there is a form of hope in there that can, uh, you know, shape and form kids and a signal.
Speaker 3 00:14:37 Yeah. And all that to say, like, I'm not saying Harry Potter is the best thing in the entire world. It's the best literature ever written. Uh, what I am saying though, is that a taps into a big narrative that the human heart responds so well to, which is good versus evil, a hero representing both worlds, conquering evil, and bringing peace to the world. And it's very striking that even JK rattling understands the power of that narrative and also the power of a fantastical world of magic that draws our imaginations in now, does she employ things that the Bible forbids, this is where I get challenged here because yes, they employ sorcery and divination and necromancy, but is it at all in any way connected to the real stuff? It's actually not that's. So I'm, I'm sort of half tempted to say, it's, it's more of a fantastical view of things that has no bearing in reality. But I want to just, I think this is important if I've got a 13 year old son who is really inclined to dark things and, and he, or she, he son he is is, is really just drawn to darkness. I'm probably not going to surround him with anything that's dark, um, Harry Potter or otherwise. And, and, uh, and so I think that's a possibility, but that's where I look at moms and dads, and I say, know, your children have a clear conscience stand by your convictions.
Speaker 2 00:15:55 The answer to this question is Harry Potter more geared for adults or children?
Speaker 3 00:16:00 You know what, as you watch the movies, they get darker and darker and darker and darker. Like the first one, the first book, uh, feels a whole lot more like it's made for maybe a nine to 13 year old, but with every, every sequential book, the battle gets darker. Um, the darker imagery comes in again, the demons and different, and the first
Speaker 0 00:16:19 Readers of the book aged with the book they didn't for sure. So their battles
Speaker 2 00:16:23 Become more mature, more devastating, more emotional lead dis distressing. All of that happens in the, in the books.
Speaker 1 00:16:32 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:34 I saw that in the movies, but I I'm assuming it happened even more so in the
Speaker 3 00:16:37 Book. Yeah, it did. But I think the, the visual nature of, of the movies that were so much scarier than the books. And so even though the books did get darker, just visualize, visualizing, it, brought it to a whole nother level emotionally as you kind of like soak it in. And so I think that's where I would not show probably books, you know, for, through the last three or four, um, to somebody who's six or seven. But if you're one or two, it wasn't that the last one. Yeah. The, I remember
Speaker 2 00:17:04 The last movie on it and it looked like darkness wins and all this all is gone. I mean, it is completely hopeless and I'm just thinking, you know, and it's, it's okay.
Speaker 1 00:17:16 I haven't seen that yet. So don't tell him how I'm on the second to last book. That was a twist. Yeah. I'll let you come across, but it's sorta like the resurrection of Christ three days of, you know, what are we going to do now?
Speaker 3 00:17:30 You know? Um, would you, if you had, you know, a whole year to yourself and you'd have to do anything, would you pick them up? Would you pick up the books?
Speaker 2 00:17:37 I D I don't. There's so many things I could be
Speaker 1 00:17:40 Doing, you know, I don't know if I still value it in a minute, but you, on the
Speaker 3 00:17:44 Other hand and you would I, for sure. Yeah. And, and we're listening to him about our family, but that's, that's a decision we made because our children are ready. Now, if I had your kids in the car, I would not be turning it out because are so well, I thought that was fun. And if you don't agree, we love you. That is okay. This is where I want to encourage you to stand by your convictions, stay by your conscience on, know your context, know your children, and just know that that is one of the best things you can do is to serve the Lord and honor all of that. So we love you. We got more questions coming up for you on Phillip's church, sermon Q and a.
